Talk:Frilled lizard
 | Frilled lizard is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||||||||||
 | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on May 13, 2023. | |||||||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||||||||
.svg){kind=small} | This article is written in Australian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, realise, program, labour (but Labor Party)) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
| This  level-5 vital article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
.svg){kind=logo}
 | Other talk page banners | ||||
| |||||
 | There is a request, submitted by Catfurball, for an audio version of this article to be created. For further information, see WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia. The rationale behind the request is: "Important". |
Untitled
[edit]this doesn't say much about the thermoregulation of the lizard, i'd expect somthing along the lines of the frill increasing surface area allowing the lizard too cool it's self more effectivly. i'm sure, anyone know what other functions it may have? Spicypeanut 12:55, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
The lizard is fauna. The niche of the lizard is to keep down the insect population. Without the lizard, the insect population won't effect much because of other predators such as spiders and ants. —This unsigned comment was added by 24.159.88.60 (talk • contribs) 19 February 2006.
- Most people don't know about this organism because it is not widely known. In my research I have not found this organism endangered. This animal is great for people into science and vetinarians because the animal is interesting and very active with the predator defense meckanism the frillneck lizard has. I hope you have as much fun as I had researching this cool organism. —This unsigned comment was added by 198.234.255.233 (talk • contribs) 7 March 2006.
Need info on diet, venom, and pet trade
[edit]There is no information on the frill-necked lizard's diet. There is no information on whether the lizard is venemous. There is no information on whether the lizard is kept as a pet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sbroadwe (talk • contribs) 15:52, August 26, 2007 (UTC)
Is the frilled lizard really venomus?
[edit]no it is not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.83.106.167 (talk) 15:23, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Juveniles
[edit]Could some images of Juveniles be included?143.216.49.250 (talk) 03:20, 18 June 2008 (UTC)Marc.S
hhhmmm
[edit]I own a frillie and i am big fan of them its mouth is pale pink not brigh or yellow. he doesnt have and red or orange scales on his frill. there are two diffrent types of frilled dragons. cant rember them at the mo (im at work) but i think this article could do with more work. also would be nice to see some info about them as pets as they are becoming popular with reptile keepers. would do it my self but i have never done a big edit on here. any questions feel free to ask. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Me lewie (talk • contribs) 12:46, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
Frilled lizard wallpaper
[edit]National Geographic Frilled lizard wallpaper Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 02:43, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
References
[edit]| Potential References List |
|---|
| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
Edit Summary
[edit]AP team - please complete the edit summary when making changes to the article or leaving comments on the talk page - this will allow others to monitor the progress and more effectively assist where necessary! In fact, as a group project, it is essential so that your team may monitor each others contributions. See me in class if you need assistance with this task. JimmyButler (talk) 18:45, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Clarification
[edit]- The frill of the Australian frilled dragon is used to scare off potential predators — as well as hissing and lunging. the frill hisses?
- Why two legs - is it better suited for climbing - is it faster to be bi-pedal? What is the adaptive advantage of such a strategy?
- The descriptive section is very limited. It should be a verbal explanation of its appearance. Not only how big it is; but, color (color variations) proportions (tail to body), etc... examine some other lizard articles (good ones) to ascertain the level of detail.
- In the habitat section you begin with the scientific name - perhaps consistency in the use of common vs. scientific would reduce confusion. Is not italics required for Genus species? Also it is the Frilled neck lizard in some sections and just frilled lizard in others.
- aforementioned ---- vocabulary over-kill - I use the general rule if I would not use the term in conversational English - then I'm reluctant to use it in Wikipedia.
- However, the trees are most importantly used for camouflage. I suggest - the trees are used for concealment while there is something (yet to be determined) that makes the lizard camouflaged.
- One of the most intriguing facts noted by scientists. I suggest a more sterile approach -unless the use of intriguing denotes a wide-spread scientific perspective.
- Being a reptile, the frill-necked lizard is, 'of course', ectothermic, Of course any reader not knowing this is clearly a moron?
- Make GA so I don't have to do this for a grade. --JimmyButler (talk) 19:45, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
In culture
[edit]I personally believe that this section is irrelevant and degregates the quality of the article, i have tried to remove it but it is continually replaced. Can anyone provide me with reasons why it shoud remain????Deoxyribonucleicowen (talk) 04:30, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
I agree, the only significant reference to the Frill-necked Lizard in culture that I can point out is that the JP Dilophosaurus has tendencies similar to this species. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dinolover45 (talk • contribs) 16:06, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
The cultural references all seem quite relevant to me, and I would point out that this species has unusually high cultural significance in Australia. Djapa Owen (talk) 22:31, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
GA review
[edit]Hi, I'm reviewing this article. My initial impression is that it needs much cleanup. I'll see what I can do to help. Triplestop x3 04:50, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
Unreferenced statements
[edit]There are statements tagged with {{fact}}. Please address this.
Reliability of sources
[edit]These sources appear to be less than reliable. They are by a single person with no editorial oversight; is there any evidence that these are reputable enough to be used? Are there any other better ones that can be used in their place?
- "Frill-Necked Lizard". http://reptilis.net/lacertilia/agamidae/Chlamydosaurus.php. Retrieved 2009-11-19.
- Bradtke, Birgit. "The Australian Frilled Lizard". http://www.outback-australia-travel-secrets.com/frilled_lizard.html. Retrieved 2009-11-17.
- Shuttleworth, Brett. "Frilled Neck Lizards". http://www.freewebs.com/reptilesandarachnids/frillednecklizards.htm. Retrieved 2009-11-19.
I'm concerned with this one because it is a commercial site:
- ^ a b c d "Frilled Lizard (captive bred)" (PDF). PETCO Animal Supplies. 2005. http://www.petco.com/caresheets/lizards/Lizard_Frilled.pdf. Retrieved 2009-12-09.
Triplestop (talk) 17:59, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
Lead section
[edit]The lead section seems to contain unnecessary details; the lead should be just an overview. The details in the lead should be incoporated into a seperate section on its anatomy if possible. Triplestop (talk) 18:02, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
NOTHOWTO
[edit]The pet ownership section contains unnecessary details in violation of NOTHOWTO. Simple statistics like life span are fine however unnecessary details like the size of the tank are not. If possible, talk about its desirability or popularity as a pet and reword some of the existing info to be more encyclopedic. (see this example). Triplestop (talk) 18:13, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
Given the above concerns, this article cannot be passed at this time. If believe you can address these problems, I can wait or you can file another nomination in the future. Triplestop (talk) 18:23, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
article name
[edit]It should be named "Frill-necked lizard" (lowercase L) in accordance with naming policy. Your thoughts? Jalwikip (talk) 19:24, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
- Seconded Strombollii (talk) 17:19, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
- Agreed, but I don't think anything should be moved until this one is cleaned up first. Seems like packing up garbage to throw out when you move to a new house.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 17:58, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
General Evaluation Section
[edit]Concerns
- This article would have benefited from a taxonomy/evolution section describing the basis for its classification and relationship to other lizards. The absence of content in a RESEARCH paper carries a heavy penalty.
- This article would have benefited from conservation status section describing current threats and human introduced pressures. What is it current status? Is the species in nature experiencing threats from habit destruction - over collection for the pet trade - etc.?
- See edit history for my quick copy/edit - addressing complex sentence structure and verbose dialog. Still in need of a thorough copy/edit - which would have been done for you if there had been evidence of sincere efforts to respond to GA concerns.
- Grossly under cited - I've added a few citation needed tags; however, there are complete section without any referencing. Wikipedia's credibility depends on verification. This is not an option for most of the claims in this article.
- The lizard is a member of the agamid family. It a relatively large lizard, growing up to 91.4 cm. The lizard is also capable of [bipedal locomotion. From classification - to size - to method of locomotion. This sequence in the Description Section, illustrates an overall problem of this article; the lack of connectivity. Organization of content and transitions between themes is in desperate need of improvement.
- It is capable of bipedal locomotion. Statements of facts without explanation. When does it go into a bipedal mode? Why does it do this? How is it beneficial? Expansion on these tid-bits reflects the level of research I had expected.
- 91.4 cm - interesting twist - usually it is a failure to include the metric - here you've chosen to befuddle the Americas. There are standard Wikipedia formats for displaying numerical data.
- The frill-necked lizard does not have a standard colour - surely there must be a range - something to eliminate pink and purple?
- Speaking of range - where is the distribution map. The shell group and the turtle group at the least put something together.
- variations of colour among the species has lead some scientists to hypothesise more than one species This badly needs a reference. Speciation based merely on color? Do they use color in mate selection - with so many variations - this seems unlikely. Another example of a significant factoid - without a follow-up explanation.
- Color is environmentally dependent. Do they adjust their color as in Chameleons or has natural selection lead to variations is specific populations. a reader may over-interpret and assume the first.
- is found solely in northern Australia and southern New Guinea. vs. The frill-necked lizard is found mainly in the northern regions of Australia and southern New Guinea. Conflict of information is unacceptable.
- You used one source in the Description Section "Animal Diversity Web". NONE of the information in this section can be located on that site. Failure to cite is only slightly less an offense than mis- attribution of sources. There is no way to determine if any on the information in the Description Section is credible. Utterly and Total unacceptable.
- Your reference states this: They eat insects and spiders, and very occasionally feed on mammals and small lizards. Termites and ants are the bulk of their diet. Which you translated into this: Like many lizards, frill-necked lizards are insectivorous, feeding on cicadas, beetle, ants, and termites. Your source does not support the cicadas and beetles, nor does it substantiate your claim they are insectivores. In fact one of your source states: Australian Frilled Lizards are carnivorous...
- Diet is addressed in different areas of your article, without consistently stating the same food sources. Ex. mainly of small arthropods] and vertebrates Here you state vertebrates are a main part of their diet. I suspect you intended the small to refer to the vertebrate part; assuming a big beetle is also a food option?
- Bradtke in the ref section is a bad link. Considering your already limited efforts at citations and the inability to verify the facts enclosed - the one chance I have to see if this is manufactured takes me to a dead end?
- Burke's Backyard, reference selected in the thermoregulation section is marginal at best. It certainly is not peer reviewed and I am doubtful it would meet the criteria for GA under well-researched!
- This dimorphism is apparent in the length of the lizard; the male is generally larger than the female. Body mass and length are not interchangable. The males average ? cm in length with the females average ? cm's. Lack of specifics - general statements that remain open ended reflects a lack of serious research. Perhaps this: Frilled Lizards are sexually dimorphic with adult males reaching a snout vent length (SVL) of 290 mm, and a mass of at least 870 g. Females are much smaller, reaching a SVL of 235 mm and a mass of 400g.
- Their long, strong tail can measure up to 65cm alone. They can weigh up to 500g. The diameter of the frill is 20-25cm, about the size of a small dinner plate! Did you know these things? Information from one of your sources that would have served the description section well - yet you opted not to include it. Their overall weight, the size of the frill. Good stuff.
- Obviously you did not reach a point in the development of this article to address citation formatting. However, the use of a reference section - which is not actually referencing anything specific in the article combined with a separate footnote section is not my idea of GA ready.
- Under external links. To be included in this section - there must be significant information in addition to what is presented here. One of these is on exotic pets is more ads than information.
- Perhaps my biggest concern is the lack of research. There is no shortage of information on this topic. Your reference selection in no way represents a cross-section of experts in the field. Not to mention it is far from comprehensive. A total of nine once you eliminate redundancy.
Assets
The images are very striking. Hopefully they conform to Copyrght policies.
Suggestions for Improvement
Since most of the information cannot be verified or the references are less than credible it might be best to revert back to the original stub. I will leave that up to the Reptile Gurus; who are no doubt perplexed by what is happening here. You are fortunate that they have shown patience; unlike the low tolerance level of the shell people.
In closing
I will refrain from a grade until you have had an opportunity to defend any concerns raised above. Others within the community are welcome to either defend your efforts or add to the list of criticisms (separate section please). This review was done in a rush - having extended the opportunity for improvement to the last minute. Based on the edit history - the additional time was not necessary. I move on to the Scotch Bonnet Shell --JimmyButler (talk) 20:13, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
Thanks
[edit]I still have very little idea how to properly use and write wikipedia and its articles within. I do agree with your executive decision to not use groups again. That did not work in my favor in any way. The reasons for our short reference list are valid, however, every reference found was unrelable, repetative, or sited our main source as its basis. Despite the horrid accident that was my group, my article, and my effort put forth I thank you for the opportunity to try something new as a school assignment. And I will not forsake this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deoxyribonucleicowen (talk • contribs) 14:20, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Frill-necked lizard or Frilled-neck lizard?
[edit]I'm sure one could find sources to support either version, but it would be nice to be consistent throughout the article. The title of the article uses "Frill-necked", but the first sentence and infobox use "Frilled-neck". Zagalejo^^^ 18:15, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
- Hmm, never seen or read "Frilled-neck lizard"....but sometimes see "Frilled lizard" - yes be good to get more input on this....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:51, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
- Indeed, looks like gov't likes Frilled lizard.....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:01, 10 May 2015 (UTC)
- "Frilled lizard" seems like a nice alternative, though I don't have much experience with zoology naming conventions on Wikipedia. Maybe I'll start an RFC. (I hope I remember how to do that!) Thanks for the reply. Zagalejo^^^ 02:58, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
RFC: article title
[edit]- The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
I'm looking to get some input on the article title. The infobox and the first mention in the lead use "frilled-neck lizard", but the current page title is "Frill-necked lizard". It would be nice to have some consistency! Another alternative might be "frilled lizard". Zagalejo^^^ 03:03, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
- Google true hit counts:
- frilled dragon - 226
- frilled-necked lizard - 229
- frill-necked lizard - 294
- frilled lizard - 336
- Not much web agreement, not enough difference to warrant a move. Frilled lizard has the lead now, but that could easily change in a year or two. Just mention all four names in the first sentence, boldfaced, article title first. For the rest of the article, avoid using any of the names unless necessary (i.e., use pronouns when possible). When necessary to use one of the names, match the article title. Avoid overthinking the disputed common name of a lizard. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:25, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- I think the infobox, title and lead should match using Frilled-neck lizard. If you look at the four names listed, three use the term frilled and only one uses frill. The lizards neck is frilled as these three names show. From a syntax or language usage perspective Frilled-neck seems the proper way to put it as in the infobox. I notice this option was not searched for in Google. It would be interesting to see these results. What makes this lizard stand out and gives it it's common name is not that it is necked but that is has a frilled neck. Even though a move is required, it not a big deal since there needs to be a page for each name for a redirect. Probing Mind (talk) 17:39, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- Google also finds Frilled Neck Lizard. Maproom (talk) 06:42, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, thank you Maproom, I did find that name used also. The name frilled neck lizard with or without the '-' along with frilled lizard appeared to be more common but I don't have numbers. I don't know how to find the number of 'true Google hits'. If numbers really means much anyway, I think the name used most often in the scientific literature is probably the more important number. Anyone have any data or opinions on the importance of usage numbers? Probing Mind (talk) 07:44, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
- Just a note. I looked at the list of potential references listed above on this page. This list happens to follow what I stated last, that I thought the frilled neck versions or the frilled lizard were more common. Probing Mind (talk) 07:57, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
- What people find when they Google in strongly influenced by the "google bubble" (see e.g. this discussion), so it's advisable to tell your browser to "go incognito". And then, if you want scientific sources, to google for "Chlamydosaurus kingii". Maproom (talk) 08:51, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
- Comment Two main points arise in this matter; firstly the irrational policy of assigning page titles on the basis of what are ignorantly regarded as "common" names, meaning what some editor somewhere regards as common because he has encountered it in one language in one region at one time, applied to at most a few species of organisms at some stages in their life histories.
The rational approach is to use the biological term (in this case Chlamydosaurus kingii) as the article title, and to create as many redirections and disambiguations as might prove reasonable and helpful.
However, as hell will freeze over and humanity will become rational before that approach is adopted, concentrate on the second aspect instead: stop wasting your time on it, leave the article alone, make sure that all the possible variations are represented in redirs, and forget about the matter. FWIW, I have always known Chlamydosaurus as "Frilled Lizard", but that does not affect my foregoing recommendation.
Incidentally, in case anyone wishes to defend the rationality of the existing policy, try to do so in the context of the circumstances that gave rise to this RFC (and good luck!) JonRichfield (talk) 08:28, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- My opinion echoes yours pretty much...but I gave up on arguing ages ago. FWIW, the Australian government likes frilled lizard. So I guess that's a vote for that from me. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:47, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
- Comment I agree with what JonRichfield said. However, there's absolutely no good reason that this page should be at "frill-necked lizard" instead of "frilled lizard", but this is a pretty typical example of the sloppiness that goes with picking the first "common" name at hand in order to avoid the scientific name at all costs. "Frilled lizard" is what the majority of sources cited in the article call it. "Frilled lizard" is the common name used by the Australian government. It's the common name used by the IUCN. It's the name used by The Reptile Database (which contributes to the Catalogue of Life database, which in turn disseminates whatever value is in their common name field to dozens of other databases and websites). "Frilled lizard" stomps "frill-necked lizard" in Google N-grams and Google Scholar. And please note that "true" Google hit counts found by going to the last page of results are completely useless when there are more than 1000 pages for a search term, as there are for almost any notable subject. Google only serves up the "top" 1000 pages, and then goes through 2 or more rounds of eliminating duplicate results (where 1 round can be overriden on the last page of results). The last result page is ALWAYS less than 1000 results, and all the "true" hit count represents is actually the level of duplication in the first 1000 results. This page should not be at "frill-necked lizard". There may be a good reason to use the common name "frilled lizard" instead of the scientific name in this case, but (echoing JonRichfield) WP:NCFAUNA's insistence on "common name whenever one exists" is deeply misguided (and not reflected in the wording at WP:COMMONNAME or WP:TOL). Plantdrew (talk) 03:32, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
@Plantdrew I ask this is not to start an argument, but because I am puzzled. You said "...there's absolutely good reason that this page should be at "frill-necked lizard" instead of..." You lost me there. Could you please give an example of the sort of reason you had in mind? (I have no fish to fry in the matter, because I would prefer Chlamydosaurus_kingii etc etc, but I am curious (and peculiar too of course!)) JonRichfield (talk) 19:05, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
- @JonRichfield:, oops, I left out a "no"; that should be "absolutely no good reason". If a common name is to be used for the article title it should have the support of at least one of the following types of sources:
- an "official" common name used by any regional expert authorities (e.g governments, professional societies) in the area where it occurs
- an "official" common name used by any global authorities
- the name that is actually most commonly used by by non-biologists who are familiar with the organism (this last can be difficult to determine; search engine tests are imperfect, but may give some hint)
- None of these sources for common names that I've looked at prefer "frill-necked lizard" over "frilled lizard". Hence, no good reason for the current title. Plantdrew (talk) 20:26, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
- @Plantdrew Ah! OK, no problems. Of course, I never make a slip, so.... JonRichfield (talk) 11:28, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'm 55 and I've never known it as "frilled lizard". It's always been "frill-necked lizard" or "frilled-necked lizard" everywhere in Australia that I've been. The Australian Reptile Park uses "Frilled Neck Lizard" as the page title and "frilled lizard" in the prose on its website.[1] --AussieLegend (✉) 21:59, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
- Was going to say Frilled Neck Lizard and base it on Parks and Wildlife NT [2] but then realized the article content here doesnt exactly agree with whats there so its probably a moot point arguing over page title while the articles content is so lacking. Multiple names are common within Australia its really not relevant to decide which is more common because that ultimately comes down where the greatest number of publications are generated. Whats lacking is the Indigenous names arent being checked(or even included inthe article) because of bias with the editors cultural background... To me the name should that by which it has commonly known for 30-40,000 years. Gnangarra 01:15, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
Frilled(or frill)-neck lizard is definitely the common name as far as the public is concerned, I think (and like AussieLegend, I've never heard "frilled lizard"). Gnangarra's last point is very important as well, though, and I would be amenable to that name too. The Drover's Wife (talk) 06:11, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
- the thing is there are just so many alternatives that the scientific "Chlamydosaurus kingii" is probably the best place with the 100 or so redirects all pointing there Gnangarra 08:23, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
- Also no objection to this either. The Drover's Wife (talk) 08:30, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'm 75 and have always called them frillneck, or frill-neck lizards, as do all of the published authorities listed at at CSIRO Publishing / Australian Journal of Zoology.Bjenks (talk) 09:28, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
- Seconding Gnangarra: There are just so many alternatives that the scientific "Chlamydosaurus kingii" is the best place with the 100 or so redirects all pointing there. As a North Queenslander, they were always frillnecks, frill-neck lizards or frillies. "Frilled Neck" is not a term I can imagine any Australian using in day to day speech. It's too clunky. So what we have are official "common names" that I suspect that nobody actual uses. Best to stick to the binomial Mark Marathon (talk) 09:28, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
- I think it might be a generational thing-when I was a kid (70s) they were always frill-necked lizards, but frilled lizard seems later..or more an official name that never took on. Actually I too would prefer it at the binomial. Lots of reptiles are already - we could have an RfC. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:57, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
- Actually, looking at Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(fauna), it says if a consensus on which common name can't be reached, the scientific name can be used. Lots of reptiles are at scientific names already. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:01, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
- Lacking consensus, the scientific name is the most neutral title, and the best in my view. Note, however, that here the genus name should be used, given that Chlamydosaurus is monotypic (see WP:MONOTYPICFAUNA) — but this guideline is widely ignored. Micromesistius (talk) 13:21, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
- Over the years I have heard all versions listed here, and others. Hence following policy it would be best under the binomial, or genus name as its monotypic. To me this would be a preference for all species since common names are local and change from place to place and over time. I consider common names of little value. No matter what the Government or IUCN consider its common name any legislative actions by the Government will be done under its scientific name. The scientific name is the most stable, the only names that are traceable through scientific literature and have a scientific underpinning. All common names should be re-directs. Cheers Faendalimas talk 12:36, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
- ""Frilled Neck" is not a term I can imagine any Australian using in day to day speech" - My 24-year-old son keeps reptiles and is somewhat of the local expert on snakes, lizards, turtles and so on. According to him the common name is "frilled-neck lizard". Last time I checked he is Australian so yes, it is in common use. He did speak with derision about the name changes, all apparently because somebody "discovered" that the frill is actually not on the neck. --AussieLegend (✉) 07:16, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- Over the years I have heard all versions listed here, and others. Hence following policy it would be best under the binomial, or genus name as its monotypic. To me this would be a preference for all species since common names are local and change from place to place and over time. I consider common names of little value. No matter what the Government or IUCN consider its common name any legislative actions by the Government will be done under its scientific name. The scientific name is the most stable, the only names that are traceable through scientific literature and have a scientific underpinning. All common names should be re-directs. Cheers Faendalimas talk 12:36, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
- Lacking consensus, the scientific name is the most neutral title, and the best in my view. Note, however, that here the genus name should be used, given that Chlamydosaurus is monotypic (see WP:MONOTYPICFAUNA) — but this guideline is widely ignored. Micromesistius (talk) 13:21, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
- Actually, looking at Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(fauna), it says if a consensus on which common name can't be reached, the scientific name can be used. Lots of reptiles are at scientific names already. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:01, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
- I support using the scientific name in most cases in general, and given all of the above, that seems like it would definitely be the best course to take here. —烏Γ (kaw), 21:26, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- I think this case is a good demonstration of why the scientific name would be better in many cases. These discussions only come up over common names, generally because people have heard the name they stand by where they are from. I am sure they are correct, but elsewhere there are always others standing just as firmly by some other name. Hence pin the article to the scientific name and then make every common name we hear of redirect to it. This just seems more sensible. I recently mediated a discussion over some tortoises from South Africa, were they Padlopers or Cape Tortoises, in the end the best way formard was to put them under the scientific name. It is usually the best solution, no matter what people think the common name cshould be, they usually agree on its scientific name. Cheers Faendalimas talk 17:13, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
External links modified
[edit]Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Chlamydosaurus. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110927162337/http://www.army.gov.au/norforce/Unit_History.asp to http://www.army.gov.au/norforce/Unit_History.asp
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110411003508/http://www.csiro.au/promos/ozadvances/Series8Lizard.html to http://www.csiro.au/promos/ozadvances/Series8Lizard.html
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).
- If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
- If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 18:56, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
External links modified
[edit]Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Chlamydosaurus. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
- Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20091030002024/http://www.arazpa.org.au/Frilled-Lizard/default.aspx to http://www.arazpa.org.au/Frilled-Lizard/default.aspx
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).
- If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
- If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 20:40, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
Towards FA
[edit]Casliber, I purchased this book you can also download this book. Made you can get a hold of his book?
Papers we can use:
- Function and evolution of the frill of the frillneck lizard, Chlamydosaurus kingii (Sauria: Agamidae)
- Ecology of Frillneck Lizards, Chlamydosaurus-Kingii (Agamidae), in Tropical Australia
- Diet and habitat use of frillneck lizards in a seasonal environment
- Physiological ecology of frillneck lizards in a seasonal tropical environment
- Elastic instability during branchial ectoderm development causes folding of the Chlamydosaurus erectile frill
- Phylogeographic structure across one of the largest intact tropical savannahs: Molecular and morphological analysis of Australia’s iconic frilled lizard Chlamydosaurus kingii
I tentatively suggest that you write, Taxonomy, Distribution/Habitat and Conservation. I'll do Description, Behavior/Reproduction and Culture. LittleJerry (talk) 15:40, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
- @LittleJerry: finding it hard to summon any enthusiasm but I am starting to look Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:13, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- @Casliber give it a try. If you can't, I don't mind doing it by myself. LittleJerry (talk) 14:58, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
- @LittleJerry: finding it hard to summon any enthusiasm but I am starting to look Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:13, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
Requested move 26 October 2022
[edit]- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 17:06, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
Chlamydosaurus → Frilled lizard per WP:COMMONNAME. LittleJerry (talk) 16:47, 26 October 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 19:02, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- Question: There seems to be at least one other common name for this species. Why are you choosing this one? YorkshireExpat (talk) 19:27, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
- 2,680,000 google results for frilled lizard, 212,000 results for frill-necked lizard. LittleJerry (talk) 21:24, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
- You need to enclose search terms in quotes (when a name consists of multiple words). With quotes, I get 216,000 reported results for "frilled lizard", 81,900 for "frill-necked lizard" and 98,600 for "frilled-neck lizard". There are problems with search engine tests, but at the very least, the searches need to be properly constructed. Plantdrew (talk) 15:58, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
- 2,680,000 google results for frilled lizard, 212,000 results for frill-necked lizard. LittleJerry (talk) 21:24, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
- Support per Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(fauna)#Use_the_most_common_name_when_possible - over 40 years ago, "frill-necked lizard" was a common name, but "frilled lizard" is clearly most common name Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:52, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose; there are redirects for 11 different common names (not counting the capitalized ones). Previous discussion (Talk:Chlamydosaurus#RFC:_article_title) resulted in consensus to use the scientific name as the title rather than picking one of the many vernacular names. Plantdrew (talk) 16:10, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
- Then perhaps the article should be titled the full species name Chlamydosaurus kingi which is the standard for non-common name titled species articles. LittleJerry (talk) 17:35, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
- But that goes against WP:MONOTYPICFAUNA. YorkshireExpat (talk) 19:59, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
- Then perhaps the article should be titled the full species name Chlamydosaurus kingi which is the standard for non-common name titled species articles. LittleJerry (talk) 17:35, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose not seeing compelling evidence for a move. YorkshireExpat (talk) 16:28, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
- Relisting comment: Google search tests imply that "frilled lizard" is the most common of the common names. But the opponents contend that there are too many common names to pick just one. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 19:02, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- Support per COMMONNAME. This is obviously much more used than any of the other names.--Ortizesp (talk) 22:24, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
- Support per WP:COMMONNAME. Rreagan007 (talk) 00:17, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- Support. Ngrams demonstrate that "frilled lizard" is the COMMONNAME. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:32, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
Informal PR
[edit]This is a great article and was a pleasure to read! I would like to give it a GA review but life has been insane lately and I wouldn't want to take it on and then leave you hanging. But I'll leave a few minor comments in case they are helpful.
- I noticed that the article switches from singular to plural throughout, it / they. I think I would suggest switching everything to singular since the article mostly starts out that way, unless you know something I don't about the style recommendations for species articles.
- The last section, human interactions, is mostly a brief list of examples of it appearing in media and culture. I was expecting to find an explanation of the ways that it has interacted with humans, like a more in-depth explanation of it's use as pets and food for example. It seems like the article claims that the creature is pretty important in culture, but then only lists a few examples of it showing up like in a 1994 film, which seems a little contradictory. But aren't pop culture mentions sections kind of discouraged? I feel like the article might be stronger without those few examples. Like it's a little odd to read that it is an important icon of Australia alongside the kangaroo and koala, and also it appeared in this Mitsubishi commercial at some point in Japan. Does that make sense what I'm saying?
I think I have a couple more comments to follow but I forgot them now so I'm going to go look back at the article and see if I can remember. Overall really excellent work! delldot ∇. 05:12, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
Oh yeah one more quick thought:
- I found this perplexing and thought it could use one more sentence of explanation: the frill "can also act as camouflage when folded, but this is unlikely to have been a consequence of selection pressure.[16]" That's odd, right? It confers a survival benefit but it's not due to natural selection? I'd just be interested to know a little more before the article moves on. delldot ∇. 05:24, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
GA Review
[edit]| GA toolbox |
|---|
| Reviewing |
- This review is transcluded from Talk:Frilled lizard/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: AryKun (talk · contribs) 17:47, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
Good Article review progress box
|
- I've done a copyedit, feel free to point out any changes you disagree with.
- The conservation information is crammed into a single sentence in distribution; this should be expanded into its own section, especially since the IUCN mentions a lot about the effect of the pet trade on the species.
- Will get to. LittleJerry (talk) 19:15, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- LittleJerry, any update? AryKun (talk) 13:21, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
Yeah, I'll get to this this weekend. LittleJerry (talk) 13:24, 19 January 2023 (UTC)- AryKun, done. LittleJerry (talk) 21:13, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
- LittleJerry, any update? AryKun (talk) 13:21, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
- Will get to. LittleJerry (talk) 19:15, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
- I've done another copyedit, mostly fixing typos and italics.
- The cladogram doesn't mentions the scientific name of the species or the clade that it is representing; it's of limited use without this information.
- "may weigh" → "weighs"
- "may have black belly" → Is the color of the belly variable? If not, it should be just "males have a black belly"
- "that may merge" → See above.
- "Males may move around more" → "Males move around more" since you give statistics that suggest that males move around more
- "Male lizards may assert their boundaries" → See above, presumably a frill display is the most common way of asserting territoriality.
- Ref numbers refer to this version. Refs checked according to ref number generated by random number generator
- Ref 12 : Verifies all claims made.
- Ref 2 : Verifies all claims made
- Ref 10 : Verifies cladogram
- Ref 38 : Verifies all claims made.
- Ref 30 : Verifies all claims made.
- Rest of references are properly formatted and are to reliable sources, and seem to be properly used.
- Article is well illustrated and uses properly licensed images.
- Earwig is clear. AryKun (talk) 15:32, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
Fixed all. I can't get for context for the cladogram since it would increase vastly in size. See this LittleJerry (talk) 20:10, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
In culture
[edit]@LittleJerry: Why'd you remove some of the examples in media? — VORTEX3427 (Talk!) 00:43, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
The current article name is rare in English
[edit]Greetings from Finland! Why tou Anglish-masters use so much pressure with strange logic? Citations from above:
- 1) "It should be named "Frill-necked lizard" (lowercase L) in accordance with naming policy." (2009)
+ 2) "There is consensus to use the scientific name." (2015)
- 3) "I'm 55 and I've never known it as "frilled lizard". It's always been "frill-necked lizard" or "frilled-necked lizard" everywhere in Australia that I've been."
- 4) "I'm 75 and have always called them frillneck, or frill-neck lizards, as do all of the published authorities listed at at CSIRO Publishing / Australian Journal of Zoology"
- 5) "if a consensus on which common name can't be reached, the scientific name can be used."
- 6) "I think this case is a good demonstration of why the scientific name would be better in many cases."
- 7) "over 40 years ago, "frill-necked lizard" was a common name, but "frilled lizard" is clearly most common name" (2022) - Yeah, clearly common in a little town in Alabama but not in Australia.
- 8) "Google search tests imply that "frilled lizard" is the most common of the common names." – Advertisements are inferior to Ngram and Ludwig (linguistic search engine).
- 9) "Support per COMMONNAME. This is obviously much more used than any of the other names." – Strange logic again. Why?
- 10) "Support. Ngrams demonstrate that "frilled lizard" is the COMMONNAME." – They support opposite. Was this discussion scientific? And can you give proof of that?
In the above closed discussion "Requested move 26 October 2022", the last commenter had incorrectly used Ngram to influence the opinions of others. The search was for frilled lizard, frilled-necked lizard, frilled-necked lizard,Chlamydosaurus, which I denote by the letters A-D. So, B and C gave zero results, although they are both more than 50 times more common than A frilled lizard. The relative proportions in 2019 in the literature are A 2657, B 207383, C 143491, D 1739. Ngram advises: "The characters +, -, *, / require parentheses to be interpreted as a composition." Try: frilled lizard, (frill-necked lizard), (frilled-necked lizard),Chlamydosaurus, so that the hyphen is not taken as a logical operator.
So, Alabama won by a neck and a half! Hurra consensus! And aussies, Your kangaroos are no match for the freestyle wrestlers of the USA. Jari Rauma (talk) 22:37, 30 January 2023 (UTC) !
- Australian - lived in Melbourne and Sydney. Never in my life heard Frilled Lizard. I came to this talk page because it sounded really weird and like a mistake. I assume it is a professional or overseas term? Better to use the scientific name for the article if its that confusing to everyone. I think its a bit obtuse that the common name in its home country wouldn't be the title. Poketama (talk) 12:50, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
Requested move 22 March 2023
[edit]- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: NOT MOVED. The requestor seems to concede that this request was born from a misunderstanding of ngram results. There's a broader discussion to be had re: whether or not the genus name is a better compromise, but that's beyond the scope of this RM. Hadal (talk) 15:53, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
Frilled lizard → Frill-necked lizard – See the previous discussion. Frilled-neck lizard is the common term in Australia (the country of the species), not sure where Frilled lizard is from. As another user noted, ngrams was performed incorrectly previously. It actually shows both Frilled Neck and Frill Necked as far more common than Frilled Lizard or the scientific name.
I would argue that the public in Australia would not notice the difference between 'Frilled Neck' and 'Frill Necked' and they are used interchangeably, but since Frilled-neck Frill-necked is the higher n-gram term I've suggested it. I don't think its worth getting into the weeds on that one. Of course, a simple check of google search results is not reliable for advocates of Frilled Lizard as that search would also include any pages on 'frilled-neck' as well. Poketama (talk) 13:06, 22 March 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 00:41, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
- Apparent copy-paste error corrected above with strike-through for clarity. — BarrelProof (talk) 15:44, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose: Please provide a link to the Ngram analysis that you believe justifies this move. A proper comparison should ideally be case-insensitive. As far as I can tell, the Ngram shows the current title as most common. Here is what I see, which says the current title is the most common one. The result seems consistent with the previous (apparently case-sensitive) one by ModernDayTrilobite on 3 November 2022. An alternative to Ngram is Google Advanced Search. It shows about twice as much (case-insensitive) exact-phrase usage of "frilled lizard" as "frill-necked lizard". Between "frilled-neck" and "frill-necked", I do think the latter term makes more grammatical sense and it does seem more popular. Consider these well-accepted sources:
- National Geographic uses "frilled lizard".
- IUCN uses "Frilled Lizard".
- The Reptile Database lists "Frilled Lizard" first as the first common name in English, with "frillneck lizard" second as the only described alternative (which isn't what is proposed).
- Australian Geographic has "frillneck lizard". It seems to confirm that Australian sources may be a bit different, but again the proposal is not for "frillneck lizard", and an Ngram that includes "frillneck lizard" doesn't find much usage of that.
- ITIS provides only one common name – "Frilled Lizard".
- Brittanica uses "frilled lizard".
- Animal Diversity Web uses "Frilled Lizard"
- — BarrelProof (talk) 15:44, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
- I think Jari Rauma was misinterpreting the instructions for Ngram compositions. Using (rounded) parentheses is to instruct the Ngram search to perform a relative-frequency comparison such as "((Bigfoot + Sasquatch) - (Loch Ness monster + Nessie))", not to search for a hyphenated term. I believe interpretation as a hyphenated phrase is what is obtained by default without the parentheses. — BarrelProof (talk) 16:53, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
- I believe you're right though the documentation is confusing on ngrams. I may have jumped the gun, so we'll see if anyone else weighs in. Thanks for your thorough response. I guess this is an unusual case where the common name is the name from overseas publications, I'm not really sure what the rules are in that case. Poketama (talk) 13:12, 23 March 2023 (UTC)
- I think Jari Rauma was misinterpreting the instructions for Ngram compositions. Using (rounded) parentheses is to instruct the Ngram search to perform a relative-frequency comparison such as "((Bigfoot + Sasquatch) - (Loch Ness monster + Nessie))", not to search for a hyphenated term. I believe interpretation as a hyphenated phrase is what is obtained by default without the parentheses. — BarrelProof (talk) 16:53, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
- Support: I have never heard the expression "frilled lizard" as distict from "frilled-neck lizard" in 71 years living in Australia, outside this page. This seems to be a made up name for scientific discussion, not an actual "common name". It is similar to the "Maned Duck" apparently used by scientists for the Australian wood duck.--Grahame (talk) 00:45, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
- I just noticed this in WP:NCFAUNA: "When what is the most common name in English, or the veracity of that most common name, is so disputed in reliable sources ... prefer the common name most used (orthography aside) by international zoological nomenclature authorities over regional ones." My suggested conclusion is that "Frilled lizard" is both 1) the most common name in English, and 2) less used within Australia, but more used by international zoological nomenclature authorities. — BarrelProof (talk) 16:59, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
Oppose "frilled-necked lizard" but would Support "frillneck lizard". That is the name used in the cites. LittleJerry (talk) 14:56, 25 March 2023 (UTC)- Move back to Chlamydosaurus, as the solution adopted in the 2015 RFC. Pointless to have repeated discussions about which vernacular name is the "correct" one to use for the article title. Plantdrew (talk) 21:19, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
- I'm inclined to go for one of the following two options: Frilled lizard or Frilled-necked lizard based on what the BBC calls them but that's their choice, not what other websites say obviously. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 21:55, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
- What about "frillneck"?. Check the journal citations and see what name is used most. LittleJerry (talk) 00:04, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
- I think I now agree with LittleJerry based on the amount of titled sources there. The Australian source calls them "frillneck lizard" based on where they are typically found.
- By checking the talk page history - it was originally at Frill-necked Lizard but Anthony Appleyard moved the article a few times, the last one being at Chlamydosaurus, sadly Anthony Appleyard won't help anymore per the notice at the top of the user page. I don't think my two alternatives would work after a rethink. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 11:32, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
- What about "frillneck"?. Check the journal citations and see what name is used most. LittleJerry (talk) 00:04, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
BilledMammal, BarrelProof, Poketama, Grahame and Plantdrew: can we agree on "frillneck lizard" since it is the name most commonly used in the cited sources, including the Australian based ones? LittleJerry (talk) 23:53, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
- You are talking about the sources currently cited in this article? 11 of the 37 references have K. Christian, A. Griffiths or B. Ujvari as the first author, so the common name preferred by these three scientists is perhaps over-represented if just counting the name being used in the cited sources. Frillneck lizard has no incoming links (except for the one I just made right now right here), so it's not fulfilling the WP:CRITERIA of Naturalness as far as editors are concerned; as far as readers are concerned, it has had 306 views in almost eight years which isn't very much for an article that gets more than 306 page views on most days. Plantdrew (talk) 01:05, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
- I prefer "frilled-necked lizard" to "frillneck lizard", which sounds like an original mishearing. Grahame (talk) 08:29, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
- Oppose Per BarrelProof. WP:COMMONNAME wins out to scientific name, simple as that. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 10:33, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
- Switching to a simple oppose Per BarrelProof. LittleJerry (talk) 15:54, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
Fossil range
[edit]I've removed the fossil range from the taxobox, although I've left the source for the fossil range in a hidden comment. The source discusses Agamidae as a whole, which originated 99 million years ago. It doesn't mention the frilled lizard as an individual species, and I couldn't find any other sources in the article that discuss its fossil record. — SamX [talk · contribs] 03:19, 13 May 2023 (UTC)
- Wikipedia featured articles
- Featured articles that have appeared on the main page
- Featured articles that have appeared on the main page once
- Old requests for peer review
- Wikipedia articles that use Australian English
- FA-Class level-5 vital articles
- Wikipedia level-5 vital articles in Biology and health sciences
- FA-Class vital articles in Biology and health sciences
- FA-Class amphibian and reptile articles
- High-importance amphibian and reptile articles
- FA-Class amphibian and reptile articles of High-importance
- WikiProject Amphibians and Reptiles articles
- FA-Class Australia articles
- Mid-importance Australia articles
- FA-Class Australian biota articles
- Top-importance Australian biota articles
- WikiProject Australian biota articles
- WikiProject Australia articles
- FA-Class Melanesia articles
- Low-importance Melanesia articles
- FA-Class Papua New Guinea articles
- Low-importance Papua New Guinea articles
- WikiProject Papua New Guinea articles
- Wikipedia articles as assignments
- Spoken Wikipedia requests